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Choke out (Read 7931 times)
Reply #20 - 30. Dec 2012 at 11:56

Spectre   Offline
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I'm not sure about other's training backgrounds but I was never taught nor alluded to any technique that didn't appear CCTV friendly (this includes at-the-ready bladed stances), every physical altercation which ended up on the ground found me using body mechanics and/or pain compliance and a semi-prone position (or recovery position for all you CPR'ers) with good success.

Ultimately though we may be judged by our peers we wont be judged by 12 individuals with sufficient insight into our industry thus the need to comprehend how the technique we employ may look to others (or CCTV in playback).
 

"Folks who think profiling has no place in the world we live and believe that all folks have good intentions are called victims of violent crimes." - David Burnell
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Reply #19 - 25. Dec 2012 at 10:05

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Quote:
Stage 3 – Exhaustion – The continuing panic and desperation to breathe may cause intervenors to see the person as a continued threat and apply even more force to restrain them. While struggling with security staff the person expends large amounts of energy trying to breathe. The individual becomes exhausted with low blood oxygen and when they are finally unable to struggle any more, it may be too late.

How can a Security Officer identify the symptoms and signs?

The first step in prevention is to recognise the risks. This will not eliminate the need to physically control some persons during violent or dangerous incidents, but recognising the signs of danger and taking appropriate preventative action may help to reduce the occurrence of bad outcomes. Security Officers should pay close attention to the following:

1. A person telling you he/she cannot breathe

2. Gurgling/gasping sounds indicating blockage of the airway

3. Lips, hands, face discoloured blue due to lack of oxygen (cyanosis)

4. Increasing panic, prolonged resistance

5. Sudden tranquillity – an active, loud, threatening, violent, abusive person suddenly becoming quiet and tranquil, not moving.

What prevention strategies can Security Officers use?

Physical restraint should only be used when the situation clearly justifies it and there is no other option available to prevent physical harm to the person or others and for the shortest possible time with the least reasonable force. Anyone who is restrained should be under constant observation and the time spent under restraint should be minimised.
The following actions will reduce the likelihood of a positional asphyxia death occurring:

Identify persons at risk – knowledge of the risk factors will help identify potential situations.

Avoid prone restraint unless absolutely necessary – consider alternative methods for resolution. The person should be repositioned from the face down/prone position as soon as practical.

Do not sit or lean on the abdomen EVER.

Identify danger signs of asphyxia – Security Officers must remember that some restraints put the subject in danger and they should avoid tactics that are associated with deaths.

Constantly monitor the person – continuously monitor a restrained person and where possible utilise a person not involved in the restraint to monitor the restrained person’s condition.

Seek medical attention – immediate medical attention should be obtained where there is any concern over the health of a person who has been actively restrained.
 
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Reply #18 - 25. Dec 2012 at 09:59

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The following posts are quotes from a Victoria Police brochure: http://www.police.vic.gov.au/retrievemedia.asp?media_id=79880
Quote:
What are the risk factors?

Security Officers are often involved in confrontations which may necessitate physically restraining a violent person. If a prone position is required to achieve restraint, some people may have difficulty breathing and even die.

The following factors contribute to positional asphyxia deaths:

1. Obesity – a large abdomen or “beer belly” means that when the person is prone the contents of the abdomen can be forced upward under the diaphragm restricting breathing.

2. Psychosis – stimulant drugs (amphetamines, speed, ‘ICE’, ecstasy) can create an “excited delirium” in which the person is paranoid, over excited and potentially violent. The stimulation of the heart can produce cardiac rhythm disturbances which can be fatal. In this situation any difficulty breathing can result in sudden deterioration in condition and death.

3. Pre-existing physical conditions – any condition that impairs breathing under normal circumstances will put a person at a higher risk when they are physically restrained. Examples are heart disease, asthma, emphysema, bronchitis and other chronic lung diseases.

4. Pressure on the abdomen – even a thin person will have difficulty breathing if there is pressure on the abdomen. The more security officers there are holding a person down in a prone position, the greater the risk that there will pressure on the person’s abdomen making it difficult to breathe.

How can a Security Officer identify when it may occur?

The key to safety and prevention is awareness of the risk. Recognizing specific risk factors may assist Security Officers adopt the safest appropriate approach when they attempt to resolve conflict situations. Review of past tragedies reveals a “downward spiral” leading to the adverse outcome that is common to these cases.

Stage 1 – Development of an incident – the individual exhibits irrational, violent, aggressive behaviour and/or paranoia. The person may be unusually physically active and aroused. The behaviour causes concern and comes to the attention of a Security Officer.

Stage 2 – Intervention – Attempts at calm rational intervention fail and the decision is made to physically restrain the individual. A struggle ensues in which the person seems to have unusual energy requiring several people to restrain them and place them in a prone position. One or more intervenors are tempted to sit or lean on the subject to maintain control. The subject may perceive this hostile and fight even harder in an attempt to get relief. The person may also be fighting harder because they cannot breathe and what is perceived to be increasing violence may actually be increasing desperation to stay alive.
 
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Reply #17 - 10. Dec 2012 at 15:18

Joe Saunders   Offline
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hongimaster wrote on 23. Oct 2012 at 18:26:
Most Police Services now discourage (or ban) the use of these holds, which makes it hard to justify why a Security Officer should need to use them.


I would argue that police should restrict the use of potentially dangerous empty handed techniques when they have other options readily available to them in the form of batons, OC spray and TASERs; all of which could potentially be argued to be less dangerous than a vascular restraint. However, a security officer/crowd controller without access to these other tools is limited only to what can be achieved with his empty hands. Therefore I think it is more understandable for a security officer to use a vascular restraint than a police officer, without the provision of specific circumstances that may make a particular response more appropriate.

I have used vascular restraints several time in my prior years of working in crowd control. I was well trained in these and regular practised them - up to 3-5 days per week as part of my judo, BJJ and jujutsu training. I had a good understanding of the risks involved, how to recognise when someone was unconscious and how to manage their safety once they were.

That said, there were at least two incidents that stand out in my mind of when I strangled someone unconscious and they didn't immediately regain consciousness. A healthy, trained person will normally come back within 10 seconds of the pressure being released, providing the strangler has released the hold at the earliest sign of unconsciousness. However, with drugs and alcohol in the mix as well as my own adrenaline, there were times where the subject didn't come back around for over a minute. I swear, every second they stayed under I contemplated life in a prison cell. It spooked me so much that I developed a deep aversion to the use of vascular restraints unless I felt the situation was enough that I could potentially justify lethal force.

Personally I view vascular restraint as an act of self defence (or defence of another), and even then as a last resort when nothing else will work. They do have their place, and a couple of times when combating supremely strong or drug affected subjects I was glad to have the knowledge. Given the risks though, it is not something I would teach to someone without having extended exposure to them and confidence in their ability to exercise prudent judgement in the application of such force.
 

Joe Saunders
Program Coordinator - Security Industry Training
Asset Training Australia
www.asset.edu.au
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Reply #16 - 23. Oct 2012 at 18:26

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The general problem with choke holds or strangulation holds (which are two different techniques - one cutting off the air, one cutting off the blood) is legally defining them as "reasonable force." This comes down to two main reasons, with a lot of other subsequent problems.

1. Authorised, Justified or Excused by Law.

2. Was this use of force "reasonable."

Dealing with the first point is relatively black and white until you start digging. Look up your relevant statutory and caselaw requirements. Usually these revolve around your powers to prevent Breaches of the Peace, or Powers of Arrest (which hintity hint hint: are not very powerful). A general rule is that you have to power to prevent harm to others and yourself using proportionate force to the danger presented (this is found at common law: McCleland v Symons [1951] VLR 157 and many others).

The act of rendering someone unconscious is generally seen as one step below Grievous Bodily Harm (which is in turn only a little below Manslaughter). By rendering someone unconscious, you are removing their ability to give consent, make decisions and defend themselves from harm. If harm happens to an individual you have rendered unconscious, you can generally be held liable. In very real cases I have read, this is not limited to: Rendering someone unconscious and them subsequently falling and breaking bones, Rendering someone unconscious and them falling into cardiac arrest or respiratory arrest, Officers continuing to apply restraint to an unconscious person causing them unnecessary injury.

If you are choosing to use these techniques, the legal obligations under my First point are whether you were Authorised to do so (e.g. you did this technique as a part of a sport or Martial Art training), Justified  (e.g. you were able to use the technique to conduct a lawful arrest or activity) or Excused by law (e.g. Self Defense).

The legal ramifications from my Second point are if you were Authorised, Justified or Excused, was the force you used "reasonable" which in turn leads to "proportionate to the danger" which is where most security officers come unstuck. Because the techniques generally have a high risk of danger, and generally aim to render unconsciousness, then the actions of the person must be seen as likely to cause bodily harm to themselves or others and that there was no other way to control said person.

You will have a tough fight trying to prove latter part (especially to a Jury) who will usually conclude that you probably had a plethora of other techniques you could have used. Most Police Services now discourage (or ban) the use of these holds, which makes it hard to justify why a Security Officer should need to use them.

Ultimately, only use this technique if you  are confident you have no other option, and you have exhausted all other options below lethal force.

And as usual, do your own research and proper training before even considering them.
 
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Reply #15 - 06. Nov 2011 at 18:52

guard 159   Offline
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Yeah it was a shit situation... licencing came in that night as a result of the venue and handed out some big fines, my complaint to management was in my log so it didn't really come down on me
 
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Reply #14 - 05. Nov 2011 at 21:25

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Guard 159 the bigger issue is the venue and the company have breached their duty of care to you and patrons by not having sufficient crowdie to patron ratio.You find incidents like this are common when their is a lack of concern from venue management/owners and security companys.How can one crowdie be expected to watch Rsa , underage Id checks , removal of patrons , refusal of entry to intox/disorderly patrons etc.You are lucky you did not have a walk through by Qps and Licensing that night a good time would of been had by all.Assuming your in Qld of course not sure on laws in other states but this is just poor practice.I am not questioning your ability just the situation you were expected to work in.
 
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Reply #13 - 05. Nov 2011 at 19:22

guard 159   Offline
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i had a incident in the city in which a male king hit a guy at the top of a set of stairs and he fell to the bottom and smashed his scull(he can't count past 33 and can't hold a drivers licence).

I was by myself that night in a venue with 2 points of entry and over 300 patrons. i attempted to detain the guy in the door way but he has punched me in the head and ran across the street, i have caught him on the other side of the road and held him till the police arrived 46 minutes after they were called and in the process i was forced to use increasing levels of force including 2 different chokes.

I would never recommend using a choke unless your safety was on the line or they had done something really bad! the injured male in my situation was unresponsive and i had an honest belief that he was severely injured or deceased.

It also helped that the guy was a 125kg martial arts instructor Cool
 
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Reply #12 - 30. Jun 2011 at 08:51

Adogguy   Offline
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And they wonder whats wrong with the industry-me not know me walk dog fully sick take em all out  Smiley .
 
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Reply #11 - 28. Jun 2011 at 14:31

mas24546   Offline
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you cannot hold a drug addict ground unless you smack him.



 
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Reply #10 - 24. May 2011 at 21:02

Spectre   Offline
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Interesting read there fella's our Security training provider didn't teach any kinds of restraint technique concentrating instead purely on (CCTV friendly) defensive tactics, I suppose the specific Crowd Controller course would have been more in depth...
 

"Folks who think profiling has no place in the world we live and believe that all folks have good intentions are called victims of violent crimes." - David Burnell
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Reply #9 - 22. May 2011 at 22:10

Asset Training Australia   Offline
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The Vascular Neck Restraint and Shoulder Pin are very effective techniques for dealing with difficult and/or dangerous restraint situations however the Vascular Neck Restraint is generally not recommended as it can easily become a 'Respiratory Neck Restraint' aka 'choke hold' especially when attempted by someone who has not learnt the technique correctly and has not practiced the technique regularly. It is also seen by bystanders as a choke.

About 18 months ago when I was working at a night club in Brisbane our team was dealing with a fight outside the venue and one of my colleagues went to break up another fight. He is very experienced and capable of applying the neck restraints correctly and restrained the aggressive patron using a vascular neck restraint. I support his justification for using the technique 100% however the other risk that he faced was the crowd of 100+ people confronting him about 'choking' the patron. Fortunately we had a good rapport with the crowd and they did not become aggressive however in a different crowd, the perception of a 'choke hold' would not be suitable for the Crowd Controller regardless of the justification.

The Shoulder Pin is a great alternative and does not risk becoming a choke hold. This is what we now teach to our trainees; many of them have applied it correctly in real situations and given us good feedback.

A few important reminders if you are going to apply these restraints:

1. They are not suitable for transporting subjects, only apply them in a static position
2. Release the pressure immediately once compliance has been achieved, this should be no more than 10 - 15 seconds
3. Learn the techniques properly and practice them regularly, if you don't do this then don't attempt to apply them in a real situation
 

Mark Costello
Director
Asset Training Australia

www.asset.edu.au
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Reply #8 - 11. May 2011 at 12:10

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SecOps wrote on 10. May 2011 at 14:40:
In that case we had 1 arm behind his back but couldnt get his other arm as it was locked under him, so we basically just sat on him for 15minutes.


One of the best holds if you can get them to the ground on their stomach, done it several times.   Looks silly but is safe for all concerned.
 
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Reply #7 - 10. May 2011 at 23:20

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There was a case in the late 90s were two Lapd cops emptied 2 complete clips a peice in to a armed ice addict.Only thing that stopped him was a truck struck him as he tried to cross a freeway.Scary stuff.Over 20 odd bullets pulled out of the offender scary stuff.
 
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Reply #6 - 10. May 2011 at 14:40

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Ok, in saying that anyone have any good suggestions for drug affected (mainly ice) patrons who have the strength of 10 men and don't respond to pressure points or pain compliance? Cheesy

I've only ever had to deal with 1 guy on ice, and myself and the other security guy (who was bigger then me) struggled to put him and hold him on the ground until police arrived. (he walked straight into the hotel and knocked out a guy breaking his nose, jaw and took out 3 teeth. Bloke was unconcious for a few minutes) Was no previous signs of aggression or altercation, on CCTV he walked in and 30seconds later smacked him and walked out. In that case we had 1 arm behind his back but couldnt get his other arm as it was locked under him, so we basically just sat on him for 15minutes.
 
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Reply #5 - 10. May 2011 at 11:25

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This previous post details the dangers of using such a hold.   This is a case where bouncers, James, Tappin and Thomas were charged with manslaughter.   The situation occured when these bouncers escorted an unruly patron Amaya out of a hotel and onto the footpath where he tripped and fell and continued to put up a struggle.   Evidence showed that he was a drug user and had consumed a considerable amount of alcohol.   It was proven that his death resulted from a heart attack but whether that heart attack was brought on by a neck hold that one of the bouncers had applied reducing blood flow and air flow to his lungs.

To read the full post go to: http://ausecurityworker.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1257040843
 
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Reply #4 - 07. May 2011 at 13:28

SecOps   Offline
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Haha, my old man's XC falcon was the same Smiley Lot more fun then the auto chokes on cars these days.
 
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Reply #3 - 07. May 2011 at 11:02

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I used to have an old LJ Torana and had to pull the choke out to start it on cold mornings. That's about the only 'choke out' I would use unless your lawyer is the same one OJ Simpson used.

Looks great on the wrestling though. Undecided
 
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Reply #2 - 07. May 2011 at 10:57

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Yeah same one. I've been watching a few youtube video's of it and wondering if anyone has used it before and if there was any ramifications for them using it.
 
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Reply #1 - 07. May 2011 at 09:39

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SecOps

Is this a restraint technique?  This is a wikipedia reference:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choke-out.   Is this the same hold?

 
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06. May 2011 at 15:25

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Hi guys,

Just wondering if anyone has had to use this before and if so, what situation were you placed in that required it.
 
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